How to Craft a Vivid Vision in Your Real Estate Business w/ Cameron Herold

Brandon:
This is the BiggerPockets Podcast, show 544, where we actually get to listen in on a real life coaching call between one of my favorite authors and business leaders in the world and a BiggerPockets member, to talk about how to manage the chaos of just insane growth by crafting a crystal clear vivid vision.

Cameron:
But what you don’t want to do is what you have done to get here. So what you’ve done to get here is like the fly trying to get out of the window. You’re going to work hard, you’re going to keep banging your head on the window until you get out. But there’s a door, just take the easier path, there’s a door. So, no more can you work hard, now you just have to work smart. All of your scale is going to come from you working smart now.

Brandon:
What’s going on, everyone? It’s Brandon Turner, host of the BiggerPockets Podcast, at least usually, and previously the host of the BiggerPockets Podcast. But today I’m actually not hosting and neither is David. In fact, I’m here alone right now doing this introduction. But in a second, I’m going to hand the microphone completely over to Cameron Harold. If you know Cameron Harold, he is the author of a number of books, but one that made a big impact on my life is called Vivid Vision. In fact, I have my Vivid Vision hanging on my wall right now. That book just changed the direction of my life, helped me craft everything that I’ve built at ODC or Open Door Capital that I’ve done was all started from my vivid Vision. And so I’ve been championing it and proclaiming this for the last several years, I’m sure you’ve heard me before.
And then this year at BPCon, we actually did a contest where a member of BiggerPockets at the conference was able to enter a contest, a lot of people entered it, to win an actual coaching call with the author, Cameron Herald, where he helps somebody who is going to help somebody create their vivid vision. And that’s what today’s episode is, it’s a recording of their coaching call. Now, I don’t know about you, but I find these things so helpful, when you can hear other people that are similar to you learn from somebody who’s an expert. It’s like I love listening in on other people’s coaching calls because it change is me. I’m like, “Oh yeah, that also applies to me. This is why I can do it for my life.” So if you don’t have a vivid vision yet or you don’t know what it is or even you do have one but maybe you need to re-tweak it a little bit, this show is for you. So all that and more coming up.
But first, let’s get to today’s quick tip, today’s quick tip. I know we don’t always do quick tips anymore, but I got to give one today. So here’s the deal, so Cameron actually has a course on leadership. And Cameron was actually COO of 1-800-GOT-JUNK? And he’s a phenomenal leader, I guess, and he teaches people how to be leaders. Anyway, he’s got a whole course. Kevin, actually, our producer at the podcast, has taken the whole thing and said it’s worth every penny and I plan to. So you can find that course, by the way, at biggerpockets.com/cameron C-A-M-E-R-O-N. So make sure you guys check it out if you think that being a better leader could help you out. So that’s today’s quick tip.
And now basically again, this whole episode’s going to cover a lot of stuff. But you can find all the resources, links to it all by going to biggerpockets.com/show544, that’s biggerpockets.com/show544. You can also leave comments there, ask questions, et cetera. You can learn more about the copywriters who actually helped J.B. who’s our guest today, his name’s J.B. Klein. He won the contest at BPCon. So great job J.B. For winning the contest. So [inaudible 00:03:18] about the copywriters who helped craft the vision, you can actually see J.B’s vivid vision right there on that page and learn more about working directly with Cameron as well. So all that and more at biggerpockets.com/show544.
And make sure you stick around till the end of today’s episode, where you’re going to actually hear J.B. Read his vivid vision. So he gets coached on how to do it through Cameron today and he is going to actually read his final version at the end of the show. I think you’re going to love it, you’re going to be inspired both by what he’s planning and inspired to do your own. So again, I love this concept, I love this episode, so you’re going to love it too I think. All right, so I’m going to get out of here and let Cameron and J.B. Klein I guess take it from here. But first, let’s roll a quick clip of J.B. Klein winning on stage at BPCon. There we go. All right, J.B, what’s up, man? How are you doing?

J.B. Klein:
Good. Thanks.

Brandon:
All right. I’ll give you mine. All right. J.B, question number one. What does your business look like right now?

J.B. Klein:
Right now it’s a little bit insane, massively growing in such a short period of time and I can’t keep up with it.

Brandon:
All right. What is it that you do?

J.B. Klein:
Buy and hold rentals. I started off with single families and then some duplexes and then last month I got an apartment complex, 18 units. A month after that was a package of five small multi-families, totaling 17 units and a whole bunch of renovations and a flip. It’s a little bit more than I can handle.

Brandon:
All right. So this is a good time for this. So where is your business headed? Where do you see yourself in the next three, five, 10 years? Where do you want to get to?

J.B. Klein:
I want to get to the point where I can grow a team and support a team where they can live full time, just working on the team and not have to do anything else, and I can maybe take a little step back. I do have a personal mission for five years or later. I want to start a veterans nonprofit organization. Thank you. So I’m hoping that that’s what I want to do with my life. I’ve personally lost friends, I know a lot of other veterans that struggle in many different ways. Suicide prevention is the big one. I’ve lost, honestly, more friends back home than I have in the field. So that’s what I want to do with my life. But it’s hard to do that if I have to do something else just to live. So this is my avenue, hopefully, to build something great, leave it to the team and they can do great things then I can focus on this.

Brandon:
All right. Last question, what are you going to focus on when you meet with Cameron? Do you have any idea what you want to focus your efforts on?

J.B. Klein:
I do. I think just trying to build a team, how to get more efficient systems like you always talk about, and just how to manage everything well and maybe start sleeping at night.

Brandon:
Sleep is good. All right. Give it up for J.B. Klein. What’s up man, thank you. All right. And with that said, I think it’s time to get into the coaching call between Cameron and J.B. Take it away, guys.

Cameron:
Hey, J.B. How are you doing?

Brandon:
Good. Thanks.

Cameron:
Good. I’m looking forward to doing this with you. You’re in Virginia right now?

J.B. Klein:
Yes, Southwest Virginia.

Cameron:
I’m over in Italy doing this right now. So we should get the guys from BiggerPockets to bring you over to Italy next time so we can do this over pizza.

J.B. Klein:
Yeah, that’d be awesome.

Cameron:
Maybe they’ll probably send us both a pizza now just to say sorry. So looking forward to doing this with you. So the whole purpose of what we’re going to do right now is you and I are going to spend some time just talking about what your company looks like and the future with the end goal of being that you’re going to craft a four or five page written description of what your company looks like, acts like, and feels like three years in the future. This document that is going to end up getting created… And we’ve got a copywriter, Jennifer Juday. She and her team have crafted about 450 vivid visions for companies. They’re actually going to work with you to polish yours and really make it pop off the page. You’re going to end up with a branded, written, professionally copy written vision of the future that you get to help craft.
And it’s going to really align your future team, your current team, the bank is going to actually understand what you’re building, your shareholders. Everybody around you is really going to understand the vision that you have in your mind for your business. So that’s why we’re doing what we’re going to do. And then the last half of what we’re going to do on today is we’ll flip, change gears and we’re going to go into a bit of a live coaching session. And I’m going to see if I can give you some advice to help fast track you on some of this.

J.B. Klein:
Awesome. Thank you.

Cameron:
That worked? All right. So let’s do a little exercise right now in crafting the vivid vision. I want you to pretend that you and I hop into the DeLorean with Michael J. Fox and we blast off out into the future. We’re going to arrive December 31st, 2024, so three years from now. We’re going to hop out of the DeLorean and we’re going to walk around and you’re going to describe everything you see in your company. So let’s start with just tell me about the size of your business, what does it look like three years in the future?

J.B. Klein:
So three years from now, I will have 1,000 units in the portfolio, I’ll have full-time team members to handle the operations, fully supported by the company’s cash flow, and I will be much more of overseer in laying out the course than the person running the day to day operations.

Cameron:
Now, if you and I just hopped out of the DeLorean and you’re describing what you see, you’re not going to be saying that you will have the 1,000. You’re actually looking around saying, “Holy shit, I have 1,000 locations.” Right?

J.B. Klein:
That’s right.

Cameron:
“I have a full time team, I am fully supported by the cash flow.” So I want you to continue describing what you see right now, but don’t tell me what it’s going to be, tell me what it is. What’s your team look like? Who are they? What makes up your team right now?

J.B. Klein:
I have my property manager, my executive assistant, I have an acquisitions manager, I have someone who controls and manages all of my finance for the company, and I have a very solid team of construction and maintenance people that are fully supported by the business and do very quality work.

Cameron:
It must be nice to have that team finally built as well, the people that you can rely on right now. What does it feel like to know that you have that team in place for you?

J.B. Klein:
I have a feeling of both relief and pride.

Cameron:
Because you’ve worked a lot, you’ve worked pretty hard to get to that stage, so that relief and pride is starting to kick in a little bit. What are you doing day to day in the business? What are you working on right now? Three years from now.

J.B. Klein:
I’m looking at less of today and more of tomorrow on a daily basis. I look towards where trends are in the future, what other markets I want to move into next, what other types of acquisitions. I’m looking much further in the future because I’m not bogged down by putting out the fires of today.

Cameron:
So your team’s taking care of all the day to day and you’re just really thinking about strategy and the plan of where you’re going then.

J.B. Klein:
Yes, absolutely.

Cameron:
What kinds of buildings do you actually own?

J.B. Klein:
I own commercial properties and short term rentals and long term rentals. Definitely quite a few single family homes. Also some very large multi-family homes, possibly even a mobile home park or two. Definitely some nice large multi-families. And I’m also spread across the country, between four or five states.

Cameron:
So you’re already moving into a number of different states, why is that?

J.B. Klein:
Diversity for one, also my goals actually are met by different areas than they are in some other areas. Some areas I may be just getting a whole bunch of cash flow in other areas I’m getting a lot of appreciation. So I’m pretty much tailoring myself to the markets. And the benefit of one that I might not get in another, I’m pretty much getting it all because I’m getting a chunk of each benefit in real estate by spreading across the areas that are conducive to that particular benefit.

Cameron:
That’s interesting. So you might be able to buy some homes or buildings that cash flow really nicely but they stay pretty flat in terms of they’re not growing in terms of value. And that cash flow allows you to buy other homes or buildings in a market where you can’t quite cover the rent with the cash flow but the building is going up in value, is that right?

J.B. Klein:
Right. I may have some mobile home parks somewhere that they’re not really an asset that’s improving much, but it’s funding my team’s salaries and the operations and just letting everything work and operate and support all the people that are on board. Then I have some maybe expense areas in some nicer markets, which I might be breaking even on, but it’s building wealth and equity for the company as a whole to further leverage and grow.

Cameron:
Are you looking at some of the areas of your business now, three years from now and looking to get rid of some of them that are more of a pain in the ass of others or are you okay with some of the PITA factor because your team is taking care of that for you?

J.B. Klein:
Yes, I’ll probably be looking at getting rid of some properties now. But right now, three years later, I have a lot of performance metrics and KPI. And my team is presenting me with all kinds of charts and data to see what is underperforming and they can advise me on which ones maybe have a lot of equity but not doing so well that I could dump and rotate into something better.

Cameron:
That’s pretty cool. Tell me a little bit about the states that you’re operating in. What states are you in right now?

J.B. Klein:
I’m in Virginia, Florida, Colorado, and Texas and California.

Cameron:
Nice. Texas, and California, why the hell are you in California? Isn’t California a really expensive litigious state? You just like it out there or?

J.B. Klein:
I think California is a deterrent for many, many reasons. But over the last three years, when a lot of other people have suffered from taxes and all kinds of other reasons, I have found ways to jump into things that nobody else wanted to be a part of.

Cameron:
Nice. I like it. All right. So you’ve got a team in place now, you’re operating in multiple states, you’ve got close to 1,000 units or 1,000 doors. Tell me a little bit of about where you’re finding your properties right now, how do you find them?

J.B. Klein:
I find them through regular public listings also through off market deals, whether that’s driving around or sending letters or looking up county records. I may not even know exactly how all these deals are being found because my team is figuring out how to find all those. I have an acquisitions manager who’s figuring out the various different funnel leads and coming up with new ways and expanding the word of mouth network and whatnot. I don’t even necessarily know how things are done on the ground floor.

Cameron:
You don’t seem to worry about that, it seems like you’ve got a good state of calm because you’ve got the right team in place.

J.B. Klein:
Right. Don’t really worry about it because anything that would be of concern, that would be officiate by my acquisitions managed. He or she would correct those issues. As long as she would be in charge of all that, then I don’t really have to worry. It never makes it to me, it’s dealt with. I trust that she’s managing everything and I just get sent these deals to check off and approve.

Cameron:
Now, when you were in the Marine Corps years ago, you guys operated with a, I’m sure, a set of core values. Does your business operate with core values? Do you have a set of core values that you lean on as a company?

J.B. Klein:
I do personally. And I think I’ve portrayed that in some ways, but it has not been clearly defined. It’s definitely not been spelled out.

Cameron:
So I think you’re going to open a door or a drawer somewhere in your business today and you’re going to find your core values and you’re going to maybe get to read them out to us. But I’d like you to think about what those might be three years from now. Have you maybe started to take your personal core values and push them deeper into the business or have you started to-

J.B. Klein:
Yeah, definitely. The main core values for the company as is known and appreciated by the public and the people we work with and our tenants is honesty and quality. We provide a quality product and we’re very honest and we have integrity in how we conduct business.

Cameron:
I want you to think about four core values. At some point off on the side, we can talk about this in our coaching. But we’ll talk about coming up with four or five, no more than five, but around four or five core values that your company is built off of three years from now that you’re willing to fire people if they break the core values, that you’re not willing to do deal if they cross those core values, that it doesn’t matter how good that real estate opportunity might be, if it compromises a core value, it’s going to be a no. That we’re really going to build that as part of the foundation of what your business comes off of.

J.B. Klein:
Okay.

Cameron:
When you do have-

J.B. Klein:
Providing value is another one.

Cameron:
Providing value, the quality product. Because you can have, as an example, the trailer homes or the mobile home parks. I spoke with a guy in Texas about 10 years ago, 12 years ago now, and I said, “What do you do?” He said, “We give the working class the American dream.” I said, “What does that mean?” He said, “Well, I give people that can’t traditionally afford a home, I give them the chance to afford their own home.” And I’m like, “How the hell do you do that?” He said, “I own mobile home parks.” I’m like, “Wow, I get it.” He was truly trying to give that American dream to everyone. So for him, the American dream that his mobile home parks had to be clean and modern and fresh, they couldn’t be the Trailer Park Boys. They couldn’t be the stuff that you see on some of the bad TV shows. So we’ll talk a little bit about that on the coaching. And I want you to make sure you think about that as part of your vivid vision. Talk to me about, why are you doing this? Why are you running this business?

J.B. Klein:
I want the freedom from the passive income for one, I want to start a veteran’s nonprofit. That’s been probably the biggest bucket list item in my life personally. And that takes a tremendous amount of time and energy, not to mention flexibility in your schedule to handle things and needs of veterans when they might pop out at a moment’s notice. It’s hard to do that if I’m stuck in a day job just to live myself. So if I can build this up and then separate myself to a degree, I don’t have to worry about having food and keeping the lights on and all my energy can be put towards the veteran’s nonprofit.

Cameron:
Awesome. Have you got something that you are leaning out 20 or 30 years towards? Do you have a BHAG, a big hairy audacious goal, that you’re pushing towards? Separate from this, where your company is now three years from now, do you have any massive push 20, 30 years out or are you just focused on that three year vision?

J.B. Klein:
Mostly the three year vision. I do have an idea of something to where my current team or the top team members actually have their own either tangential businesses, their own portfolios, or they can actually buy me out and they just have this large thing that they can carry on when I’m gone or when I’m doing my own thing and do even bigger things than I was able to do.

Cameron:
So there is some part of the business that you have your-

J.B. Klein:
I like this team.

Cameron:
So your team members buying in at some point or in some way into the business or maybe it’s a certain number of units that you allow them to participate in, that kind of thing?

J.B. Klein:
Yes. Maybe not as an ongoing partnership throughout the growth. But at some point, not only do I want to add to the portfolio for my own business and have them help me run that, but I definitely want to encourage them to start their own journeys as their own individual investors. And at some point, that company instead of just being dissolved or cashed out one day, they can actually not just take the reins, but after that actually take ownership and everything that they helped build now they own that. That’s something they created too.

Cameron:
Where are you getting the financing for this growth now three years from now? Over the last three years, where were you getting it? And where are you starting to get it now three years from now?

J.B. Klein:
Primarily banks still, possibly some syndications in the works, some private money lending, or even partnerships for individual deals. But primarily large bank financing or even local bank financing.

Cameron:
And have you got good relationships with those banks? Tell me about the relationships you have with the banker or the bankers.

J.B. Klein:
I have a very good relationship with the banks. They pretty much know my track record, my history, we do business all the time. I can pick up the phone and pretty much describe what I’m looking at. They say, “All right, when you get at the paperwork ready, the proposal, send it to me we’ll take a look.” And then I get a yes or no back or, here are the terms and stamp of approval. Then I pass that off to the team and they rock and roll through the acquisition.

Cameron:
That’s got to feel pretty good to actually have those relationships in place with the banks now.

J.B. Klein:
Absolutely. Because you’ve earned the trust so they don’t really question. You’re considered… Basically, I’m a very, very low risk company in the eyes of the banks.

Cameron:
Why do they feel that? What is it that you’ve done to build their trust?

J.B. Klein:
Mainly the track record. I’ve never once defaulted or come close to it. I get into deals that are safer deals and cash flow well and all the various metrics and numbers involved, always looking good. So they know that if I’m going to actually pursue a particular acquisition, they know I’ve done my own underwriting pretty good. And they know that even the problems that have happened in the last three years, because nothing ever goes perfect, there’s always setbacks, I’ve always taken care of the bank and investors first.

Cameron:
You mentioned that you’ve built up a team now, you’ve got a team of people that are paid for off the cash flows and off the businesses. How do you lead the team? The team, are they self-led, are you leading them, is there a person who’s managing all the people for you? How’s that working?

J.B. Klein:
I’d say I have my five people on the team that I directly interact with every single day or maybe once a week. But there’s a direct relationship in exchanging information for the business and my direction and my inputs and they give me the status and everything. But I also like to not only just stay on the top of Mount Olympus, but I actually go down there and know the people that are working at the lower levels and get out there and see in the trenches and out in the field how are things are. I want to be known by everybody not just some guy in the big office. So I hope to have a relationship with everybody.

Cameron:
What’s the brand of your company? What’s your company called?

J.B. Klein:
New River Valley Real Estate.

Cameron:
New River Valley, I like it. And when people talk about New River Valley, how do they describe you? How do they describe the company?

J.B. Klein:
Professional and honest, definitely that we mean business, when we say things, we definitely mean it, and that we’re serious and we know what we’re doing. And if you get an offer or a phone call from someone from New River Valley Real Estate, you want to take the call and you press that. It’s a serious entity to deal with and conduct business with and you can trust them.

Cameron:
The kinds of properties that you’re buying three years from now, are these turnaround locations? Are you buying places that need to be renovated and remodeled? Or are you buying places that you could put a tent in the next day or both?

J.B. Klein:
At this point, 3 years later, we’re doing both. I still like to… I think the scale I’m at now, instead of going to one distressed property and flipping it and turning into nice and having a nice rental, I can actually go into whole neighborhoods or small towns, gobble up this whole sections or streets of maybe historical but really dilapidated buildings and actually revitalize an entire section of a town or a whole small neighborhood. And again, something very proud of, something to leave your legacy and your mark.

Cameron:
I got to do a quick sidebar on this, by the way. My dad and I were talking about this recently, and he said he could see in the future a street of ranch style, one floor homes, two bedroom, three bedroom, smaller places that have all been fixed up. The entire street has been fixed up and it’s all filled with seniors, people in their 80s, living in all these homes in that one street. And one of the homes on the street is actually a nursing station person who just makes sure that everybody in the neighborhood… It’s like an old age home community but done in small towns because these seniors don’t want to live in the big cities of Austin, they want to live in the smaller towns. And if they can be on a street with 24 of their other senior friends but they don’t want to be in a senior citizen community. I don’t know if there’s something, there might be something, there might be something there.

J.B. Klein:
Interesting.

Cameron:
They don’t go anywhere, they just sit there. They’re just going to be paying rent until the next 80 year old comes in and pays rent, right?

J.B. Klein:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. There’s an interesting, I think, gap niche in there maybe. They want the quieter life, but to go out from the hustle and bustle to find that, you tend to get more run down or low economy upkeep of properties as you go further away. So how do you get the best of both worlds?

Cameron:
There might be something there for you. So I don’t know, maybe we’ll play with that later.

J.B. Klein:
Just making a nite.

Cameron:
So you’re buying, gobbling up neighborhoods, you’re maybe doing some commercial stuff. What is keeping you awake at night about your business that you’re really working on fixing three years from now? What is it that you’re really now working on?

J.B. Klein:
That’s tough call.

Cameron:
You’ve got five or six people, you’ve got 1,000 locations, you’re in multiple states, is there anything that you’re thinking about or worrying about that you’re trying to fix at that time?

J.B. Klein:
I think at this point, I want to make sure that the people that I entrust everything to have the same decision making abilities or will make the same decisions that I would in my absence. I want things to be carried on and stay the course and go in the same direction even when I’m much lesser or not at all in the picture. How do I leave it in some people’s hands and make sure that if I look back five years later that it’s still on the same direction?

Cameron:
So it sounds like you’re probably putting some of the systems and the processes in place so that the business can run without you three years from now, is probably what you’re probably putting in place. And you’re probably also growing the team and the capacity of the team so they have the skills to run this without you.

J.B. Klein:
Yes.

Cameron:
Where are you growing? What are you working on in terms of your growth? I know that you’re involved in mastermind groups, where are you learning and growing as a leader three years from now?

J.B. Klein:
I’m actually meeting with significant and iconic people who have success in other areas, whether it’s other areas of this business or other areas of completely unrelated businesses, maybe not even business in general. That’s where the whole self improvement and everything takes off to a whole nother level. Because I have time now, I have the freedom to fly somewhere and have a lunch or an afternoon with someone that opens my mind to a whole nother mindset about whether it’s habit forming or what do you really want to leave on the earth and that type of thing, any number of random things. Even know what you don’t know. There’s so many avenues out there when you’re not stuck on what the task is I have to do today to what can I explore for my own personal growth in the future? And what more can I do in the world?

Cameron:
Tell me about the relationships that you have with some of your sub-trades. You’ve got, you said different trades people and maintenance people that are doing work with you, what are those relationships like?

J.B. Klein:
Those relationships are pretty good. I take high expectations and I demand a lot, but I compensate and take care of the people who meet those demands very well. So it’s a very symbiotic relationship and my expeditions and high demands are not met with aversion because the people I have on my team are very proud of their own work. They have self pride in the product they give to me. And again, they’re very well taken care of and we’re all happy.

Cameron:
I want you to lean back three years, go back to 2021 for a second. That year you grew from two locations to 50 locations, how did you do that back then? What was it that allowed you to do that in the early days?

J.B. Klein:
Mostly self education, tremendous amount of work, and just working harder and smarter. I think people talk about not trading… People who go into business for themselves often talk about not trying to trade time for money because it’s limited. I think for that year and a half, I was trading sleep for units. So just putting every single waking minute of the day of every single day into pushing and trying and taking the leap to get into things that might have been scary to get into. But given the shot and once you’re stuck with something that you signed a contract for, you have to figure it out and make it work. Persistence, which a lot of people say, which I completely think is true, when everything fails and goes wrong, you have to keep pushing and keep pushing and keep pushing and roll with the punches and just wait for the bell to sound, I guess, at the end of the boxing match.

Cameron:
When you were doing that and being so persistent back then, was the business cash flowing itself back then, three years ago?

J.B. Klein:
It was and it wasn’t depending on the week. There was a lot in the building process where I needed the cash flow to fund things and to live off of. And then there was times where I needed capital to leverage to get into the next deal. So I went in things that really didn’t make any cash but increased equity. And then that I had to turn around to get into a cash flowing property to show cash flow to the bank to get finance. The leap fraud back and forth, whatever was needed, basically whatever the bank needed to give me loans to buy new properties. I Just had to constantly, constantly, constantly readapt my strategy on a weekly basis.

Cameron:
Were you selling properties back then as well or was it all buy and hold?

J.B. Klein:
It was pretty much all buy and hold, there was a couple of sales. But there was some of the Burr methods where I actually pulled out more equity than I put in. So I actually got a chunk of capital in the bank from cash-out refinance. Even if I wasn’t really cash flowing, I just did basically the flip but I held onto it, did the cash-out refinance, got a big chunk of capital, and that’s what I needed to be able to put a down payment order to get into the next one. Then I might have recast. Once I had some capital, I could put that back into a couple of others to recast them to lower the payments. To cash flow back, it was quite a hodgepodge mix match of every strategy in the book adapting on the fly, not really one clean path.

Cameron:
Are you less stressed in 2024 now than you were back in 2021? Just hopping out of that DeLorean again, what’s your stress level like in the three years from now verses today?

J.B. Klein:
I’m more and less stressed, primarily less stressed because I don’t have the day to day to day to day, minute to minute things that I’m having to deal with every second. I’m also maybe a little bit more stressed in some things just because at the size I’m at now, the stakes are much higher. So as I get less stressed in the day to day, my concern level goes up because as the scale increases, the stakes just get higher and things are more important and I have more people to be responsible for their livelihoods as well. I’ll trade the worry about the long term vision over the day to day stress any day.

Cameron:
All right. Let’s change gears because where we’re going to go with this is the transcript of this is going to go off to Jennifer Juday and her team, and Jennifer’s going to do a call with you as well. They’re going to start pulling some of these rough ideas together. We’re also going to get you a copy of this transcript so that you can take some of this. I’m going to email you some samples of some other vivid visions. I’m going to get you to just write your first draft, a word document that only Jennifer and you are going to see. And then between you and her and her team, you’ll pull this through to a good completed document that you’re proud of, that everybody’s going to like, and you’ll be able to share.
But what I want to do with you now is just start talking about some of these things in the future and let’s reverse engineer them. So the way I’ve always approached business is I think of every business like a jigsaw puzzle. And for me, the four corners of the jigsaw puzzle are the vivid vision, so that’s the direction of where we’re going and what it looks like. And as long as everyone’s clear where we’re going, that’s key. It’s like a foundation for a home. If you’ve got a shaky foundation, it doesn’t matter how good the home is.
And then the second corner is your core values and really getting core values deeply entrenched into your business. That you’re going to hire people based on the core values, you’re going to do deals based on core values, you’re going to work with the banks based on core values, you’re going to fire people based on core values. And really starting to think about core values as part of all of your everyday decision making. The third corner of the jigsaw puzzle for me is core purpose, and it’s why you’re doing what you’re doing. Which for you it’s to give yourself the freedom and the cash flow to be able to do the nonprofit, to be able to not have to worry about the day to, to be able to build some kind of a legacy. That’s the core purpose of why you’re doing this, right?

J.B. Klein:
Yes.

Cameron:
Then the fourth corner for me is that BHAG. I think for you, currently the BHAG isn’t really developed or thought through. But I think it is something around legacy and something around you’re being able to do you something that gives you a life. How old are you now, 42?

J.B. Klein:
42.

Cameron:
That was a holding guess. So you’re going to be able to build something that is going to give you a legacy business in the future that allows you to take care of your family and yourself and gives you that financial freedom. I think for you, you have to decide what that lifestyle is that you’re living in the future and that BHAG has to get you there. So I think it’s going to be something around that nonprofit for the veterans as well, there’s going to be some tie in there. So those are the four corners of the jigsaw puzzle that I really want you to think about over the next few years. And some of them have to be foundational this year. The core values, the core purpose, the vivid vision have to be really deeply entrenched this year. And those become the foundation that you’re going to build the place off of. Then if you build a jigsaw puzzle, after you get the four corners, you start with the sides. You get all the side pieces of the jig puzzle.
So the first side of the jigsaw puzzle for me are all the people systems. And that’s the interviewing, the recruiting, sorry. Recruiting, interviewing, hiring, training, the leadership development of people. Your business is going to be predicated off of your ability to recruit and hire and onboard and align really good people. Because for many of them, it’s a job, it’s how they pay bills, it’s how they have enough money to take care of themselves and their family. They’re not building a legacy, they’re just trying to pay bills and they’re doing what you’re not wanting to do. You don’t want to have to just be worried about it. For most employees, that is what they worry about.
So you’re going to have to get good at aligning those people, inspiring those people, finding those people, and keeping those people. You’re going to have to show them meaning and help provide meaning. And that’s going to be key for you in the business because if you’re building a business that is giving you the freedom and the cash flow and the future, that means that it’s largely because you have the people in place that are doing it for you, right?

J.B. Klein:
Right.

Cameron:
So have you had any training around interviewing at all?

J.B. Klein:
None at all.

Cameron:
And you’ve hired some people, right?

J.B. Klein:
I have.

Cameron:
How the hell did you do that? You don’t know even how to do an interview.

J.B. Klein:
You get someone to do one thing for you and you work together. And actions speak louder than words, so trial basis. And I see what they do in one thing small. I think if you just watch a person actually do work and how they do things and how they conduct themselves, probably I think, at least from my perspective or my skillset, shows me more of how well they’re going to do and what type of people they are than what they’re going to say in a resume or in an interview session.

Cameron:
Sure. So I think you have to take this to the next level now. You’re going to be building a $50 million business that runs itself and throws off free cash flow. You can’t anymore, starting today, hire somebody and work on a project and try to grow them, that’s just not going to scale. You know, Even when you joined the Marine Corps, there was some kind of an interview process. They just didn’t take the first guy with a pulse and say, sure, come on in. There must have been some level of interviewing and of training and some base level that they look for.
So I’m going to recommend that you read a book called Who by Geoff smart. It’s a very, very strong book on the interviewing systems that you need to actually bring good people into a company. It might be a little overkill for you, it might be a little more than your business needs, but flip through it, take the good parts, and don’t worry about the stuff that’s too complicated. Take the stuff that makes sense for you and simplify it. I’m also going to recommend that there’s one of the modules in my course, Invest In Your Leaders. In fact, the whole Invest In Your Leaders course is going to be good for you. But I’ll make sure that we get you a copy of the Invest In Your Leaders course for free. I’m going to get back to the guys at biggerpockets.com.

J.B. Klein:
Thank you very much.

Cameron:
Not at all. It’s only 670 bucks, but I’m going to gift you a copy of that for doing this. I know the guys at biggerpockets.com are fans of it as well. But the idea with the Invest In Your Leaders course is it is the 12 of core leadership systems and tools that every manager needs to be good in their job. One of them is the interviewing section. So in that course, you’re going to learn how to do proper interviews. But it also talks about coaching and delegation and time management and project management and one-on-one meetings and running effective meetings. It’s all the skills that you need to actually be a good leader in a company. But you need to get good at interviewing because your business is going to be hiring people.
And by the way, when you bring on a sub-trade or a contractor to work in your buildings, there’s an interview process and picking those good ones. You have to know how to pick. Otherwise, they end up doing three projects and screwing all three of them up and then they hurt your reputation, they hurt your brand, they hurt time, they hurt money, the bank’s upset all because you didn’t know how to interview a sub-trader or interview a contractor. So interviewing is going to be very, very key for you as a system and a skill that you need to learn.
And then for the people that you have, I would put those people into the Invest In Your Leaders course. Invest 670 bucks in them to grow their skills because if you grow their skills, they can grow your company for you. You’re involved in the BiggerPockets community because you want to grow your skills as a leader, you want to be connected with other smart people in the industry that are driving things forward. Those are things that you want to do for your employees, as well as connect them with some of those skills too.

J.B. Klein:
Absolutely.

Cameron:
But the interviewing has got to be key for you, bringing good people into your company has got to be key for you, aligning those good people is going to have to be key for you. And then it sounds like you’ve done a pretty good job at avoiding all the busy work, probably because you were just so go, go, go at another unit at another unit, you didn’t have time for all the miscellaneous stuff, you didn’t have time to waste time. That’s going to be key for you and your growth over the next three years too. Is focusing on the critical few things versus the important many. There’s going to be lots of stuff that you could be doing that isn’t necessarily the critical few things. And if you stay really focused on the stuff that matters, that’s going to be powerful.
Another thing that you’re going to want to try to start looking at yet doing is leveraging video communications for everything that you do. So if you’re going to have to call your banker, ask if you can hop on Zoom or FaceTime with your banker. If you’re going to have to call a sub-trade, ask if you can hop on Zoom or FaceTime with your sub-trade. Most people are walking around with an iPhone. The video can communication that you can have with a sub-trade, a contractor, a bank, an employee is really powerful because you build a relationship that you just can’t get over the phone or over email. So I think that’s [crosstalk 00:43:47].

J.B. Klein:
No, I like that.

Cameron:
… for you in your growth too. Here, you and I are talking right now and you’re in Virginia and I’m in Italy. And I can see body language, I can see when you’re writing a note down, you get a connection. But if I turned my video off and I’m just talking to you without video, it’s a very different experience. So I think that’s going to be powerful for you in your growth. For sure, your banking relationships are going to be important. That relationship on financing is going to be critical for you. They’re going to believe in your track record and they’re going to believe in your results and they’re going to believe in your economic side of the business, but they’re really going to believe in you as a person.
So it’s going to come down to, in this next 12 months, the number of times you can go for lunch or coffee with your banker, the number of times you can go play golf with your banker. The getting your vivid vision into the hands of your banker and asking them to read it every three months so that they’re really clear on what you’re building. Because you’re going to be standing apart. The whole idea with getting your business into the mind of the banker is that you need to stand apart from everybody else. New River Valley has to be something different from all the other real estate companies that are simply a spreadsheet, right? So those relationships are going to be key for you. I love having the relationships with the small regional bankers that you can just go for lunch with because they want to do business with people like you.

J.B. Klein:
I definitely prefer the personal touch.

Cameron:
I would weave that into your vivid vision as well. I would explain that that’s part of how your business operates. There’s a guy that I met who’s pretty big in real estate, his name is David Osborne. David, I think he’s the number one Keller Williams real estate guy in the US. And he and I we were at a mastermind event, we both paid to be in three or four different mastermind groups. He turned to me one night and we were just sitting beside each other and he’s like, “Cameron, are you Cameron Harold?” I’m like, “Yeah.” He goes, “Hi, I hear about you all over these places.”
Where I was going with this was I think for you, staying involved in the BiggerPockets community, finding other entrepreneurial communities in your market to get in with, like you mentioned, sometimes it’s learning from people in your industry, sometimes it’s going to be learning from people outside your industry as well. The key is to just always keep learning. But when you’re learning, it’s try to tie the learning to what you’re working on over the next three months. Don’t read random business books that have nothing to do with what you’re working on over the next three months. If you’re going to be hiring three people in the next six months, start reading stuff about hiring and interviewing and onboarding people.

J.B. Klein:
It’s more targeted learning.

Cameron:
Yeah. That’s why schools sucked. The reason school sucked for you and for me and for everybody else is nothing of what they were teaching us was relevant. But if they were teaching us about something that mattered, like, what are your hobbies? What are you into?

J.B. Klein:
I like long range shooting, motorcycles. I used to like rock climbing and skiing a lot.

Cameron:
Sweet.

J.B. Klein:
Definitely barbecues and picnics. I still have some my adrenaline sport.

Cameron:
Your energy just went up talking about like rock climbing and skiing and barbecuing and long range shooting and motorcycles. Imagine if the teacher said to you in school, “I want you to read about the history of motorcycles, I want you to read about the science of how a motorcycle works, I want you to read about the mathematics of motorcycle sales for Harley Davidson, I want you to read about the marketing of motorcycles.” You would have been like, Every one of those classes sounds amazing.” A marketing class on motorcycles-

J.B. Klein:
Definitely more engaged.

Cameron:
Yeah. Why are we studying the history of a war that happened 300 years ago? Why can’t we study to the history of motorcycles? Because what they’re trying to do is to teach us about history and to be interested in learning. So your learning right now has to be tied to the stuff that matters in your business today. So it’s going to be, how do I build relationships with bankers? Will be important. How do I build a small team? Don’t read business books about running companies with 1,000 people when your company is going to have 10 employees in three years. Read Michael Gerber’s E-myth. You want to be reading all of the books that are tied for the very small entrepreneur read traction. Do you know it means, book traction? All of your learning has to be tied to what you’re working on. As an example, I run a podcast called the Second-in-Command podcast, which is great, I interview amazing guests. But for the most part, it’s pretty irrelevant to anything that you’re working on.
The people I’m interviewing are running companies that are way bigger. The lessons that they’re talking about aren’t that relevant to you. It would be a total waste of your time to listen to the Second-in-Command podcast. Doing the Invest In Your Leaders course would be a massive for you because for the amount of money, it’s a rounding error and for the amount of learning, it would fast track you in around all the leadership skills that would be powerful. So that’s where I’m thinking for you over the next three years, is it’s all going to come to like investing, where you have to get the highest return on your money. In some cases it’s to get the cash in some cases it’s to get the growth, whatever. You have to get the highest return on your time. That’s why I was like, “Why the hell are you doing California?” Texas made sense and Florida made sense.
Geographically, I would try to stick within one time zone of where you are. California’s a long fucking way away. And the pain in the ass factor is pretty high. There’s plenty of real estate to go around within one time zone and within a two hour flight of where you are. Because what you want to be able to do is wake up in the morning at 7:00, be on the eight o’clock flight, be in the market at 10, and be on the seven o’clock flight coming home so you can talk to your wife at 10:00 PM before you guys go to sleep. But California, I would be looking at getting the highest return on your money, the highest return on your time, and the highest return on your people over the next three years as well. You mentioned that you have an executive assistant in the future, do you have one now?

J.B. Klein:
Yes, part-time.

Cameron:
What do you have that person doing for you?

J.B. Klein:
Mainly phone calls and emails, research. Still actually struggling to find the time to onboard and explain all the things I need help with so that I have more time. There’s a little bit of a catch 22 at the moment. But I’m hoping just I get it on phone calls almost all day long. And there’s just five minute tasks that I don’t necessarily have to do myself or at least I can have her aggregate all the things into one 10 minute phone call to be more efficient.

Cameron:
There’s also you’ve got to look at how do you get results through people. And you’re right, that some parts of it right now is it’s going to take you time to grow her to do stuff so that you can get it off your plate. But if you spend a half an hour training her to do something and she’s going to do that five minute task every week for the next 50 weeks, you’ve spent 30 minutes to save 250 minutes, that’s a good deal, right?

J.B. Klein:
Right.

Cameron:
You have to look like a long range shooting. You shoot, you don’t have to shoot like an archer. You have to understand the mathematics of the executive assistant is that the more time you train her on certain tasks, the more that she can do that forever. And then it’s also… Do you have a cleaning lady or cleaning person that comes to clean your home?

J.B. Klein:
Not anymore.

Cameron:
Because you’re putting that money into real estate?

J.B. Klein:
Well, it’s hard to find good people. But no, I try and do it myself. I guess that’s one thing I could really delegate out, all my personal life stuff.

Cameron:
I would get a lot of that stuff off your plate too. What you want to do is get rid of every minimum wage task that’s on your plate. What does your business do in revenue right now?

J.B. Klein:
We’re about, I have to pull up the spreadsheets, but I’d say about $17,000 a month to $26,000.

Cameron:
So that’s around $200,000 a year, that’s $100 an hour. So you’re effectively earning $100 an hour right now. That means that if you’re doing a minimum wage… If I was your CEO and I was paying you $200,000 a year, which is what you’re currently earning from your business, if I was paying and I found out that I was paying you a $100 an hour and you were doing a $15 an hour job, I’d lose my shit. I’d be like, “Dude, I’m paying you eight times that, why am I paying you $100 to do something for $15?” You need to free up your time so that you can go ride your motorbike, you need to free up your time so that you can go grill for your friends, you need to free up your time so that you can build a relationship with a bank. Because I’ll tell you, the hour that you spend with the banker is better than the hour you spend cleaning your home and doing the laundry.

J.B. Klein:
It’s crazy when you mentioned that because that’s pretty much exactly how I had conversations with my contractors about, the supervisors may get 50 bucks an hour and they have employees that work for 10 or 20 bucks an hour. And I was saying, “Why are you helping someone set a toilet or something?” And I should apply that to myself.

Cameron:
You have to fire yourself from every minimum wage job that’s on your plate. You have to actually get pissed off. Pretend that you were paying me $100 an hour and you found out I was doing minimum wage jobs. You’d be pissed off, get pissed off at yourself. And then what happens is everything starts to scale now because you start working on the critical few things, you start working on the strategy and the delegation and the growing of people. Even the reason I even gave my course the name Invest In Your Leaders is I believe that if I invest in them and their time, that I grow their skills, they’ll grow my company.
If you could spend time growing your executive assistant, growing a couple of contractors, working on your interview skills, your business goes through the roof. But what you don’t want to do is what you have done to get here. So what you’ve done to get here is like the fly trying to get out of the window. You’re going to work hard, you’re going to keep banging your head on the window until you get out. But there’s a door, just take the easier path, there’s a door. So no more can you work hard, now you just have to work smart. All of your skills-

J.B. Klein:
Makes sense.

Cameron:
… are going to come from you working smart now.

J.B. Klein:
Sounds good. No, that makes a lot of sense.

Cameron:
So we’ve got about four minutes left. I finish every meeting five minutes early so I can always be on time for my next meetings. What questions have you got for me?

J.B. Klein:
Probably about 50 million, so it’s hard to pick one right now. How do I figure out to convey or take the stuff that I’m doing right now, which… I have a hard time figuring how to pass off some of my tasks to another person because do I just need to spend more time in the training or do we have to sit there and do it together and follow? It’s just-

Cameron:
So I’ll answer the first part of the question then I’m going to give you a quick exercise that will be very helpful and we’ll be able to wrap with that. So you can have someone listen in on all of your phone calls and they can learn just from listening and then you can talk to them afterwards. You can forward your emails to them and have them read them, or you can blind CC them so that they can read them and they can learn just the way you’re writing and what you’re saying to people. You can have them sit in meetings, they can ride shotgun with you, they can listen in on phone calls that you do with your team or your staff. So they get to learn just from watching. I learned a lot about running companies just from sitting with my dad, watching him run his businesses, just being around him. So just get your employees and your EA-

J.B. Klein:
[inaudible 00:56:08].

Cameron:
Yeah, get them to be around you and they’ll learn just from osmosis, they’ll learn just from watching. And then what you do on the drive to the next place is say, “What did you see me do? What did you see me say? Well, this is how I did that.” And they go, “Oh, okay.” You’re driving anyway. So when you’re driving to that other place, you just talk to them. But the key thing to remember is that, yes, it’s going to cost you to train them, but the upside is that they can then do that for you at scale. Your job needs to get done but not by you. You need to break the habit of, I need to do this. No, no, it needs to get done but not necessarily by you.

J.B. Klein:
Definitely.

Cameron:
And then your job is to figure out, can I automate it? Can I outsource it? Can I delegate it to someone? But it all needs to get done but not by you. So I even have this podcast, my Second-in-Command podcast, as soon as I get off my episode, my Zoom files get automatically uploaded. And then my podcast team, who are in Tel Aviv in Israel, they get notified that the files come in, they download the files off Dropbox, they do all the editing of it all. Then my post-production team puts it all, the marketing. I do nothing other than I do the interview and I’m done, I delegate everything except genius.

J.B. Klein:
So you would say I run through everything that I have to do. And what about putting it through a filter where either I automate, delegate, or eliminate?

Cameron:
Here’s the filter, I want you to pretend that someone followed you around with a video camera for an entire month, just like Gary Vaynerchuck, and they’re going to video everything that J.B. does for an entire month. And then I want you to write down everything that you see yourself doing. What I do is I open up an Excel spreadsheet or a Google Sheet and I put down every task one row per task. I open emails, I read emails, I reply to emails, I show up at meetings, I talk to some trades, whatever. Write down all the 86 things you do over the course of a month. And then you’re going to categorize those things in one of four ways, either the letter I for incompetent meaning that you suck at it, a C for competent meaning I’m okay at it, and E for excellent meaning I’m really, really good at it, and a U for unique ability, meaning I’m really good at it and I love doing it.
As an example, I’m pretty fucking incompetent at grilling a steak. I should just have someone barbecue it for me. And for you, that’s like, “That’s impossible, how can you be bad at it?” I’m like, “Dude, I’m way better at hiring somebody to grill my food for me than I am at grilling my own food. I’m very good at…” So if you can delegate all the incompetent and all the competent, that’s the first thing. And then the second way is, put down a dollar figure, what would the hourly rate be that you’d pay someone to do each of those tasks? What would you pay them to grill a steak? What would you pay them to clean a toilet? What would you pay them to wash a car? What would you pay them to call a contractor? What would you pay them to negotiate with a bank? I’d probably pay more to negotiate with a bank than I would be to hire a plumber.

J.B. Klein:
Makes sense.

Cameron:
So what you’re going to now start doing is delegating everything that’s below your effective hourly rate. And then the last thing is, can you stop doing it. Before you delegate it, before you outsource it, does it even need to be done? There’s a bunch of things you might be doing that just don’t even need to be done anymore. So before you delegate something, let’s decide, does it even need to be done? Is that helpful?

J.B. Klein:
Yes, very, very helpful.

Cameron:
All right, man, we are a wrap. I’m going to get Jason from my team to give you free access to the Invest In Your Leaders course. I know that Kevin and the team at BiggerPockets are going to give you access to Jennifer Juday and her team, so they’re going to work with you on your vivid vision. When you’re done with your vivid vision, when it’s all crafted, send me a copy of it. I’d love to see where it wraps up too.

J.B. Klein:
No, I’d love to. I really appreciate the time and all the help. Thank you very much.

Cameron:
Of course, you’re welcome. Have a good one. Good luck with it all.

J.B. Klein:
Now that I have my vivid vision, I might take a few minutes to personally read off a few of the highlights that are most important to me. This is our snapshot. The following is our vivid vision. Creating a vivid vision brings the future into the present so we can have clarity on what we are building. Now. It is a detailed overview of what our company will look like, feel like, and act like three years out, by December 31st, 2024. It’s December 31st, 2024 and New Valley Real Estate is a veteran-owned and operated real estate company, raising the bar for quality, care, and service in the community. Team members leave the office at the end of the day feeling proud of what they’ve accomplished, appreciated, and energized to spend time with their family and friends. Investors sleep easy knowing that their money is in good hands and on track to produce an ROI.
When customers look for a place to rent and hear it’s owned by us, they know they’re in for quality service, where their needs come first. And individuals in our community who traditionally faced high barrier entrance into buildings, like women from battered women’s shelters and homeless veterans, now have beautiful and safe places to call home. The secret to our success emerges from our honor code, AKA our core values. These are our core values, honesty, quality, personal development, efficiency, teamwork, and communication. Honesty is important to us. We conduct business with integrity, fair practices, and ethics. We try not to, but if we do make a mistake, we own up to it and course correct quickly. Quality, we put care into everything we do. When people see our logo or hear our name, they think, “Now that’s a brand you can trust.” Personal development, we educate ourselves and each other not just so we can do our jobs better but to improve the quality of our lives outside of work too.
Efficiency, we work harder and smarter. If we can get more done in less time and create more flexibility to enjoy our lives, we’re all in. Teamwork and communication, we work together. We’re open and honest in our interactions and quick to lend helping hands to accomplish more together. Our culture is what’s most important to us and what sets us apart. We recruit, hire, and onboard quality people who are great at what they do and love doing it. We are not just a group of coworkers, we’re a family, a true team. We understand the importance of our work, we also do our best to be efficient and not waste time or money. We don’t take lightly the fact that our job affects others, both inside and outside the company. The personal bonds and camaraderie that we build are apparent even when we’re off the clock. Whether it’s picking up groceries or lending a listening ear to someone in need. We’ve put a lot of effort into building your future together. So we all share the pains of loss and the pleasures of success.
We enjoy a healthy sense of humor when appropriate to get through the Workday with joy. And it’s not uncommon to see our founder walk in and ask a painter how his newborn son is doing or order lunch on a job site for our team. If there’s a topic a team member wants to learn more about, say preparing for retirement or buying a car, we’ll happily provide the resources you need. As a member of our team, we support your continued growth so that you can keep getting better at what you do and improve the quality of your life. At New Valley Real Estate, we believe in being involved in the community. We work hard to have a lot so that we can give a lot. We do that through donations and participation.
This starts internally with giving forward to our team members who helped us get here and extends to our friends, family, and the larger community. Whether it’s simply offering a shoulder for a team member to lean on or sponsoring an event in the community to raise awareness and funds for battered women’s shelters, substance abuse recovery homes, or disabled people, we’re happy to get involved. We collaborate with a nonprofit that supports veterans in the community to provide housing, as well as internships, free training, and coaching. Lastly, we never forget to give to ourselves and enrich our own lives, which fuels our motivation to always do more.
Founder feeling, my core purpose in expanding New Valley Real Estate is to gain the cash flow to pay the bills and the team to manage the company so I have the freedom to focus on starting a nonprofit dedicated specifically to veterans. I want this company to be a legacy not just for myself, but for my team members as well where one day they can share ownership of the business, a legacy for investors so they can feel confident they made smart investments they’ll see returns on for years to come, and a legacy for community members who live in and enjoy our properties. My mission has always been to create a space that’s enriching, fun, and conducive to a productive work environment, where we can achieve our biggest goals.
Thanks to our hard work, values, and vision, we’ve built a well reputed name for ourselves in the community, synonymous with trust and quality. None of it would be possible without you, my team, investors, and clients. I am so proud of everything we’ve accomplished and excited for what’s next. Thank you for listening to me highlight our vivid vision. If this resonates with you, please reach out to me, I’ll be happy to find out ways that you can support us or that we can support you and we can all work together. Please see the show notes for the contact information. I’d be happy to hear from you, please reach out. Thank you very much for listening.